Message Board Archives

And, growing up I used to run into these guys at nights in the streets, drunk like hell, staggering from side to side, could barely stand up, but try anything at them, they will stand up straight as an arrow and confront you or any danger that threatens. And, they would tell you "drunk or sober, mind yuh own business". That statement means "don't believe that because I drunk that I stupid" , it means that you should always maintain your awareness whether you are sober or had a few drinks; don't be fooled anytime.

On this Forum, people use the rum shop notion to hide all their prejudices and hatefulness, and believe that all of us born "big and stupid" and we cannot see. I read a lot, and i follow cricket to a T from the time i was a little boy, all over the world. But, i also follow caribbean politics and events, and that of the world over; it is a passion of mine to be informed on things of this world. If you keep looking at cricket alone, you may develop a certain perspective, but that would be narrow. Understanding caribbean history and society, as well as the dynamics of today gives you a better understanding of things. When you understand caribbean society, you see things in a different way. And, if you played cricket, and understand the game, if you've been involved in managing organizations where regionalism and tribalism exist, you tend to understand the the pitfalls, the criticisms, the ignorance etc.. For example, one day i was witnessing the WICB being chastised for their unprofessionalism because of some travel issues with some of the players who could not get to their destinations on time. At the same time, then PM of TT at the time, Kamla Persaud was unable to get to a Heads of Govt meeting on time in the Bahamas because of problems with airline travels in the region. i asked myself, do the people who constantly post on this site ever are able to associate the two events to get a clue as to the nature of travel in the region, and how impossible it is to deal with that. if i give you a history of my travel plans in and out of the caribbean from 1980 to now you will be shocked, i.e. if you never travelled. With the best planning, you never know what to expect; and inter island travels are worst than international travels, no matter how far ahead you planned and kept checking.

A serious mistake we make sometimes is that we compare the caribbean with everything we see in the diaspora. Thus, a little education and a job in a respectable firm in New York or London gives us the impression that we have all the answers to the caribbean problems. Politicians make those mistakes each day, and that is why they never achieve anything. But cricketers and others on this Forum make the same errors. when you begin to judge everything by the standards of Australia and England, you are being unfair to the region. Apart from our physical divisions into many islands, we do do not have the resources to compare with these places. That is not to say that we should not strive to improve our standards, but we need to be conscious that it takes more than money to get that improvement, because if money is the only measure, we will never get there. That is why, we were able to compete in the early days, because it took the level of consciousness of the cricketers who understood their history. Viv Richards did not use the measure of money, otherwise he would have taken that HUGE cheque offered to him by the South Africans. When he refused those $millions, he was indeed laying the foundation for those beneficiaries today, many of whom don't seem to be able to appreciate that.

I often find that on this forum, i never see some articles here. I read these articles all over the caribbean and international media, but the regular folks never bring them on here. I look at many programs in the caribbean, like Sportsman, but many pertinent things i hear there, i never see the main pundits here bringing those things here, and i wonder why? Maybe, if some of us listen to all these programs, read all articles with an open mind, and also, get some "on the ground" feedback about players, and the things they do and do not do and say, then you might understand a person like me.

But you must pay attention to the political and economic situations in the respective countries too, and understand that when politicians play cheap politics with West Indies cricket, you are supporting those things at the perils of poor poor people on many of these islands. You must begin to connect the politician with his country, his rhetoric, and the state of things in his respective countries, and decide if he or she is worth the noise they make. i am calling on people here to pay attention, the caribbean is not just cricket. Everything is intertwined, and the mistake you may make is that the WICB may be dismantled must to you pleasure, but who would replace them, and would there be a difference; we need wholesale changes, not cosmetic.

In reply to Besar

Mostly sober

In reply to Besar

Your article is one for the front page.

Idi is on board...he may be able to facilitate this.

Point to note....not every one in the rum shop is here for the 'heavy' stuff...like any REAL rum shop...choose what table and company you want to sit with....and enjoy....and ignore the other tables

Paragraphs, son.

_r

In reply to Narper

In reply to Kay

In reply to Besar

Great post...

In addition to the below...

In reply to Besar

Nice thoughts

Nice write but a sentence or 2 coulda suffice to say what you wanted to say.

In reply to jacksparrow

Twitter generation..

Good effort...but I find it bit preachy, making lots of excuses for which ever angle it's going in, as its winds along. It's constantly condratictory.

Its making lots of assumptions about what people think and who posts here. The beauty and power of message boards is the varied ideas and positions on any topic listed. So respond to those you don't like and support those you do..it's what makes boards like CC.com powerful.

You warn that its not incompetense that makes Kamla notoriously late and lambaste those who dare criticize her or the WICB, but at the same time you lambaste regional governmnents for being incompetent. Which is it?

Should we just resign ourself to LIAT's incompetense or the WICB constant fiascos?

People have a myriad of ideas on any subject man as anywhere else. And the US or London have real shyte everyday, just read their papers.

You accuse people of applying the high standards of "Australia" to the Caribbean? Mate outside of snake catching and drunks Australia have nothing on the Caribbean. There are so many things I consider better [for me] In the Caribbean than in the US for example.

You ramble along about history but miss the glaring fact that the children of slaves and indentured servants, ripped from their culture with violence to be used and then abandoned on some rocks in the middle of the atlantic ocean, still continue to trive very well centuries later.

In the end, drunk or sober mind yu damn business and let people post what they want man.

In reply to Tagwa1

In reply to Besar

Why don't you post the articles them that you don't see here. That's an opportunity

In reply to Tagwa1... word!

In reply to Besar

Perhaps you can probably explain why
despite the recent successes of Our
U-19 Team ; Our Women's Team & Our Men's Team in the shortest version of the game , the WICBC cannot capitalize
on their successes because of Contractual Obligations .

Now you may or may not agree , but as
I have stated in this Forum many times the PEOPLE in the WICBC are devoid of
Business Acumen .

I found it interesting that you did not mention the fact that when Our
Players toured New Zealand , In a Warm up Match New Zealand Players were playing on Our Team due to the fact that WE did not have enough Players to field a full strength Team .

Now it was not that this Tour suddenly came up out of the blue . My take is that this should not have happened .

One year the WICBC sent our Players to play Cricket in England in early Spring , most of our Players never played Cricket in England , and were unaccustomed to the cold weather .

Interestingly , Our Players played a
Test Match , when it was so cold in England , County Matches were cancelled .

Now all that I have stated above aint a figment of my Imagination . What I
have stated are stark cold Facts . You also may be blithely unaware of the fact that the current Structure of the WICBC is 89 years old .

The WICBC has for years been bamboozling the General Public by commissioning several Reports & then Ignoring the salient features of those Reports .

I sincerely hope that you respond in detail to what I have stated here . I
would readily agree , that this Region aint as well off as other Countries , however that does not mean that WE have to accept Mediocrity .

In reply to Tagwa1

I hear You , very good response . My take is that People in the Region are not obliged to accept Mediocrity .

While many lambaste the Governments for
their performances . Every 5 years Governments have to face the scrutiny
of the Public In ELections .

That aint the same with say the WICBC ,
First of all the Electorate that the
Members of the WICBC face in miniscule in comparison to those who vote for Governments in the Region .

WE are fully aware of the flaws of Governments because they have Oppositions Parties . They also have
to be transparent & Accountable .

The Worst International Cricket Board
in the Commonwealth do not face such scrutiny . So it ain Transparent or Accountable , despite the fact that it is the Steward of a Public Sport .

So when I hear the Lackeys of the WICBC , being very critical of the Governments in the Region while saying nothing about the WICBC , I have to laugh .

In reply to Besar

Please allow me to refresh your Memory
Prior to the 2007 Cricket World Cup , the WICBC asked the Regional Governments to assist it in hosting the 2007 Cricket World Cup .

The Governments spent approximately 500
million dollars of TAXPAYERS MONEY ,
Building New Stadia , Renovating Existing Stadia , and sprucing you the Grounds .

The Tournament was very successful ; about 2 years ago the Regional Governments Politely asked the WICBC
to implement the recommendations of
The Patterson Report .

The WICBC bluntly refused that request , and to demonstrate its total disdain of the Regional Governments , it then commissioned the Wilkin Report , which it swiftly discarded when it received that Report .

Now neither You or anyone in this Forum can factually state that what I
have written here is untrue . I would also like your comment on the above .

In reply to Besar

Great post mi youth

In reply to steveo

It would be nice if he addresses the Issues I have raised .

In reply to POINT

In reply to POINT

What he ^^^^^^ said

In reply to Besar

None of what you wrote can justify the perennial problem of poor management by the WICB and the arrogance of its leaders. And it is not true that folks use Aus and Eng as benchmark.

Perhaps you are not aware, in Cricket, WI is and must be judge by "first world standards: simply b/c WI is a first world cricket nation- we have been around since 1928, one of the oldest members of the cricket fraternity.

Afghanistan is an example of a Third World Cricket country.

And BTW, the former PM of Trinidad last name is Persad Bisessar, not "Persaud."

The Issues that I have raised
whether One agrees or disagrees with them are very pertinent & valid .

Now if the Author of this Post disagrees with what I have stated , he can state that . The gist of what I am
saying is that those who disagree with what I write need to show me where & how ,what I state is wrong .

In this Forum , I like to point out where Others views are in my opinion wrong ;and showing them why I am of the opinion that what they state is wrong .

In reply to Tagwa1

I read here almost daily, because as you said people have varied ideas and it makes the board powerful. I believe that too, and just like you, I post when I want to and I agree with many ideas here and disagree with others. Many times, just like you, I can detect contradictions and make assumptions based on the things I read. I try my best not to get personal with anyone and disrespect people, so i write in general. I post very seldom, and when i do i try to cover as much as possible in one post.

I do not know how you derived that interpretation in my reference to Kamla; am still trying to figure out how you came by that . However, you lambaste the WICB for their incompetence and I respect that right, but if you think I lambaste the governments, why deny me my rights? Anyhow, my constant position is that the WICB mirrors the WI governments; that everything in the caribbean is intertwined; how is that a contradiction?

I do not believe that we should resign ourselves to any sub standards; we should always make efforts to improve our positions as caribbean people. However, some people condemn LIAT as incompetent, point blank; some people dismiss the WICB as a bad disease just to be rid off. My friend, just like you have your take, there are others who understand the forces that operate against LIAT, and we temper our judgement. If it was easy and profitable to service the caribbean like LIAT does, they would have been out competition long ago by more wealthy foreign airlines. Some of us just understand the obstacles any Board by any name would encounter in our region, and we use that in making our judgements; is that wrong or offensive?

I am a proud West Indian, a proud black man who knows his history well; i never had an issue with that my friend, and I do not compromise on that. i do not know how I dismissed our struggles in what i wrote, but i am certain that it was not unreasonable to suggest that that we are a region that is severely limited in resources and it is sometimes unfair to measure us against places like Australia, England, India, South Africa etc (I was talking cricket). That is not to suggest in any way that we should not aspire to do better.

Sometimes in exercising your right to challenge anyone on a post, make sure you fully understand what the person is saying.

In reply to POINT

My friend, I ask questions l
1.ike what are the contractual obligations that limit them and how that compares with other offers they may have let pass?

2. Define how they are devoid of business acumen and explain how it can be bettered. Don't tell me to implement the Wilkins of Patterson Reports; tell me how implementing them would change things.

3. Have you ever read those reports? Please enlighten me on them.

4.Why were they short of players in the warm up game? I do not believe that they would just send a team short to New Zealand. If they did, then that is recklessness to the extreme. But, I tend to believe that something must have happened that may have derailed the plans, no matter how long ago they were made. I used an instance of Kamla getting one day late to a caricom meeting in the Bahamas last year just to emphasize how travel arrangements could be severely affected by sudden airlines flight changes. I was implying that if it was the Trini or WI team being affected same way and arrived late for a game, the WICB would have been chastized on this Board for incompetence. One guy's response to that is that I defended Kamla's notorious lateness. I did not even know that she was notoriously tardy. Suddenly i am condoning LIAT's incompetence; boy oh boy.

5. Why did they arrange the test match that time of year in England, do you know the answer? In the caribbean, we have a hot, dry season from January to June where we played our cricket. To accommodate the same players the WICB now have to arrange test series in the rain/hurricane season, did you notice that, or are they just utterly incompetent? What is the difference?

6. Wow, 89 years; aren't our governmental structures centuries older than that and imported directly from England; maybe we need to change that too, do you agree?


7. you notice am asking you to elaborate on the points you make? I want the answers too, please inform me. People like you make those generalizations daily but cannot elaborate; noise noise noise.

In reply to POINT

Again, I ask what are the elements of those reports, and to what extent they have been applied or discarded? Based on your knowledge of the reports, how could they enhance West Indies cricket? I ask because i do not know the answer.

About those stadia and tax payers money, i will hold back for now. i am sure you do not have the answers for that.

In reply to Besar

Let's be short.

Why is it unfair to compare us IN CRICKET to England and Australia?

By the way it would be unfair to the US to compare them to us in terms of cricket.

Ah...look we just need to do better and I am with those who want to pressure us to do so.

In reply to Besar

You are being evasive . FYI , prior to the 2007 Cricket World Cup , in this
very Forum I stated that in return , for Governments spending Taxpayers money to make the WICBC hosting the
Tournament a success . The Regional Governments needed to get the WICBC
to sign a legally binding document stating that the WICBC will undergo Structural Changes .

That was not done , obviously the
Regional Governments had the WICBC over a barrel at that point . So flash forward to roughly 3 years ago , The Regional Governments politely
asked the WICBC to implement the changes recommended by the Patterson Report .

The people in the WICBC as I have stated bluntly refused to do that , and to demonstrate their utter disdain of the Regional Governments ,
The Bums , commissioned another Report which they then swiftly rejected .

I cite this to illustrate how ungrateful the Bums are . Now as I am fond of saying , all that I have stated here aint a figment of my imagination .

You have perhaps deliberately ignored the fact that the current structure of the WICBC is 89 years old , which means that it was formed in the 20th century , WE are now living in the 21st Century .

Like the BCCI , the WICBC lacks Transparency & Accountability , because as the Supreme Court in India recently observed , the BCCI et al
believe that hiding under the Fig leaf , provided by the edict of the
ICC , that states, Governments must not intervene in Cricket , means that International Cricket Boards are empowered to do anything that they want .

The Supreme Court told the BCCI et al
that it is the final Arbiter in matters that come before the Court .
Now that asinine comment about Governments not intervening in Cricket has long been dispelled , but
Cricket Boards still spout that asinine Statement .

A few years ago the Government in Guyana took the Guyana Cricket Board to Court , the ICC & the WICBC did not put up an Appearance in the Court .

In reply to Besar

Your last paragraph is really Hilarious
Why are you holding back ???
If you have evidence that what I stated
is untrue , then by all means produce it .

You have stated that YOU are sure that I do not have answers , when I have factually provided you with the Answers .In this Region , most of the Cricket Facilities are PUBLICLY OWNED
so please spare me your Nonsense .

The WICBC does not own any blasted thing ; it derives its power from being the Steward of a Public Sport ,
The Supreme Court in India , made that crystal clear to the BCCI & the
STATES Cricket Associations .

In reply to POINT

In reply to Admin

Yup!

Is this one of your post and is this how in your words in this post "West Indies cricket problems are deeper than that; will address that a next time."? Was this post your solution?

In reply to Tagwa1

We don't have the kinds of resources that they possess to invest in cricket. Neither our Board or governments could afford to compete on the same level in terms of investment in facilities like grounds, academies etc.. Last time in the World Cup of 2007, thanks to countries like China and India that some of our countries were able to get a near suitable facility to host a game, and we struggle to even maintain them. We do not have the resources to invest in the very best of specialists like coaches, and to attend to the players' needs as the others do.

Many of these countries are better, economically, than our region, so that based on our scale of income it is even a challenge to full some of these stadiums unless tickets are delivered free to a sizeable portion of the interested spectators in some countries or sold for next to nothing. That is despite the fact that we are already one of the smallest markets for this game. India, England, South Africa etc have huge, ready markets for cricket, a fact that we often ignore.

As you rightfully said, we came here under the stresses of slavery and indentured labour, and we have worked against our disadvantaged situations to compete at every level. We are still disadvantaged, and just like our foreparents and us, this generation should realize that they have to make sacrifices too; we are not there yet, definitely not. It is through sacrifices, pride from the awareness of our history that we were able to compete up to this time.

In reply to Courtesy

I do not ever go back and check, but that is my post; very consistent with my position. I am not sure that I understand the purpose of you bringing this up.

In reply to POINT

That is the only paragraph you read? Why didn't you answer your own questions that I posted to you?

In reply to Besar

In reply to Besar

In reply to Kay

The BCCI & the States Cricket Associations have been tardy regarding
the implementation of The Lodor Committee .

As I have stated elsewhere in this Forum , The Supreme Court Judges verbally slapped around the BCCI ;
the State Cricket Associations & their Counsel .

They were informed by the Court that they could not hide under the Fig Leaf of the ICC's pronouncement regarding Governments being unable to intervene in Cricket .

In reply to Courtesy

Go easy on him , I will deal with him
soon .

In reply to Besar

Read my current Post entitled :

SO HOW MANY NEW FINANCIAL SPONSORS

HAS THE WICBC GOT ??

Please read all the comments ; and check the Links . BTW it is my
understanding that Mr. Hunte resigned , because the other Members of the WICBC
rejected the Recommendations of the
Patterson Report .

In reply to Besar

Let me apologize to you , because it seems that I have run You off your Post , that was not ever my intention .

I am willing to eat crow , if Anyone , can factually prove , that what I sate
in this Forum , is a figment of my Imagination .

When I Post in the Rum Shop or the Back
Room I am stone cold Sober . I am here to simply state my perspective on Cricket .

Some people disagree & some agree ,
in my opinion the heart of the matter with Cricket in the Region , is the
fact that for 89 years , those in the
WICBC have bluntly refuse to change the Current Structure of the WICBC .

The genesis of its Structure is in the 20th century . WE are now living in the 21st century . The very fact
that the people in the WICBC have
commissioned several Reports , and then refused to implement the recommendations of those Reports , from my perspective , it seems that
they are not really serious ; but in
addition are engaged in a never ending Stalling process .

WE now have the WEHBY REPORT , that consists of various Captains of Industries , who have to answer first of all to their Shareholders , not Cameron & Co .

I predict that the Wehby Report aint going to be read until at least 2
years from now . THEY ALL MUST GO .

In reply to Courtesy

When you are highlighting quotes, you must avoid fooling others by adding parts that was not said by the person you are quoting; that is deceptive. Also, every post I make is in a particular context, maybe responding to a news item at the time; you must state the context and what was the headline news at the time. If you place the headline news at the time that led to a particular post, others may be able to put into context what was said.

Having said that, I have stated my position clearly from the beginning. I have watched WI play for ages, and the generation that make up the senior players of today, i feel cheated by them. With my own eyes, I have watched these players on the field, and what i have seen had depressed me. Time and time again, as a paying customer i have viewed these players who appeared complacent, lackadaisical, uninterested, laissez faire, non chalant. People on this Board condemned them in the lowest terms; the international media from all parts have commented. It was not about winning or losing, it was that attitude of seeming to not be trying or caring; i could not believe what i was seeing, because one does not mind his team losing if they are making an effort. That is what had motivated my feelings. People from all over the caribbean and diaspora were condemning these players not because they were losing, but the manner in which they lost, their ATTITUDES of never seeming to be aware as to what they represented.

While all this was happening, they got into fights with the WICB demanding more money, headed by a noe former WIPA President; that I could not believe too, I thought they were indeed bold. I searched my conscience and wondered, how could I support these guys? and my conscience told me that there is no way way you should support that bunch. Believe me, for the first time in my life I was hoping that the Board would hold their own and do not relent. i have pledged that I will never support that group of guys, and if that makes me anti worker or player, I am prepared to wear that label as a BADGE of HONOUR, and I have no apologies about that.

I have looked at the Under 19 team on the field of play, and the women, and i have seen light at the end of the tunnel. I have looked at some of the new players like Kraig Braithwaite, Carlos and others, and there is hope, a new attitude. I support people who work hard to overcome, against all odds. i am prepared to put my life on the line to defend any worker or West Indies team against any employer or Cricket Board, but that group, that generation of senior players, based on what i have seen with my own eyes, does not deserve that level of sacrifice. While i do not believe that the WICB is any model for efficiency (I did say that they mirror West Indian Governments), I do believe that we lost the plot when we shifted ALL, and I repeat "ALL" the focus and blame on them; that is a mistake that we will live to regret.

And that is my basic position, and who do not like it can go to hell.

In reply to POINT

You or anyone cannot run me off, i post as often as i have the time or motivation to. Often i do not comment because by the time i come on here most topics are exhausted and the points that I would have made are well made by others. I do not like to repeat; you do that so well.

So many times you have written stuff and i challenged you with either facts or probing questions to prove your vagueness, and you never respond. I have seen others gone out of their ways to challenge you with facts, and when they do, you disappear for a few days, and then you reappear making no mention of the those challenges; you are slick.

You are stuck in one gear, and you don't seem to realize that. For example, you preach everyday that players cannot improve if they do not play more of the longer versions of the game. That is a basic fact that even a fool would not deny, but i will ask you in return, how could we achieve that in the region we live in, and to date you have not answered that.

While you preach daily and condemn the WICB or (WICBC as you refer to them) for not affording the players the opportunities to play the longer version, i have never heard you applaud them for scheduling more games in the regional tournament. Also, i have seen you here condemning the WICB for not playing their senior players in the longer versions even if the players themselves have not been playing in the longer versions, most of them by choice. Do you not find that contradictory? When i point out things like that to you, I am branded a WICB sympathizer; why would i keep responding to things like that.

You know, one of your laments is that of the windwards for having a "2 day" tournament. Years ago i questioned that myself, and went out to seek the reasons. I learnt that not only that the Windwards board does not have the resources to fund a longer tournament (boarding, meals, trade etc), but even several of the players as well cannot afford to. Many of them them are workers and a long tournament would result in too much loss of income; some of them take their vacation to coincide with the tournament. The Board has no choice but to shorten the tournament. Just a couple years back, i read where one of the Leeward teams had to forfeit a finals because they could not afford the expenses of travelling to the country of the host. The idea of sponsorship was raised, and the cricket official's response was that those little businesses on the island cannot afford much through sponsorship. Sometimes i believe we forget which part of the world we live in, based on our comments here. One guy was ready to destroy me for daring to advise that we should avoid the direct comparison with England, Australia, South Africa, india etc. The irony is, when the West Indies found a way to finance a longer tournament and to ensure that the players are well taken care off while they concentrate on cricket, they were chastised again and called thieves.

The World Cup was held just last month, already you have begun to condemn them for not getting new sponsors. it is like you just sit and wait to find another line of attack; lets wait a while and see.

In reply to Besar
batty bwoi u surface again. Welcome back we miss ur long winded bs