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partisan insularity and shallow thinking. The appointment of the Manager of the current A team tour stinks.
CWI goes from bad to worse year by year. The eat a food posse are shameless.

In reply to Chrissy

who is that manager?

In reply to camos

Dwain Gill, Member Director Windward Islands Cricket Board of Control - Mr. Gill is the President of the Grenada Cricket Association.

https://dominicanewsonline.com/news/homepage/news/three-dominicans-appointed-to-management-positions-in-windward-islands-cricket/

In reply to Chrissy

VOR would say Revo Revo REvo....tek ovah !!!

Miss Chrissy....we are sinking fast
CWI must be disbanded....a private company running WI cricket should end pronto.
Who's going to bell the cat?
Caricom is toothless....

Thought tour manager was something given to an ex player to make a change?
Management now going after these perks!

In reply to Narper
Write Revo backwards and send to Vor tell him that's what's happened to CWI leadership.

In reply to Chrissy

The current WICB president is characteristic to his name, "Shallow".

Christine...Dwain Gill is a dedicated servant of West Indies cricket and has managed several teams at the regional and international level - including the winning WI U-19 team in 2016.

He is a Barbadian by birth and has lived in Grenada for several years. He has worked his way through cricket administration in the Windwards and now serves as President of the Windwards Board.

I hold no special brief for him, but I think that citing his appointment as an insular pick and one that "stinks" may be slightly unfair.

My two cents.

I rarely disagree with Chrissy but this time I must. Gill has the appropriate experience. I dont have a problem with his appointment. Was his appointment publicized with the naming of the team? That should satisfy the need for transparency. For that matter, I think Athanaze is the only WWI pick on that team and that could not be an expression of insularity as everyone agrees that he deserved his place.

In reply to newdread
Bro I respect your views but no President of a national or multi-island board should be a team Manager. I find dat a conflict of interest. Just my two cents.

In reply to PalsofMine

He is experienced but make him resign from both the CWI Board and the Windwards Board to take up that Manager post.

In reply to Chrissy
Andrew Mason panel questioned Shallow about the conflict of Interest, Dwain being a board member of CWI.

In reply to openning
Of course there is a conflict of interest - that is my point. I have no problem with him as Manager - he is competent but this is a clear conflict of interest.

I have rejected more offers than I can count in this region over the years because me and foolishness nuh mix and I do not remain silent. Nuff acquaintances have wondered why I don't side with the interests of the West Indian middle class.
This is a clear conflict of interest.
I don't think Shallow is shallow - I think like di rest of dem he is following di parson and christening fi him own first. Di eat a food posse continues.

In reply to PalsofMine
Man leff Athanaze out a dis - di youth earned his place - I've been arguing for his selection based on merit.

In reply to Narper
CWI is a private company and they operate like most private companies in this region.

In reply to newdread

It's just that they're adding up.

First, we have the lady from SVG, which just happens to be Dr Shallow's home country, appointed to serve as first female member on some board or the other.

Next, we have (our favorite) $ammy being appointed as white ball head coach, a job for which some people say he is not qualified. Again it so happens that $ammy is a fellow Windwards Islander.

Now we've arrived at this Gill guy, who again happens to be a fellow Windwards islander.

Just coincidences or is there a distinct pattern here.

In reply to Chrissy

Dwain is Bajan... accent and all. Grenadian wife though. Also was a decent lil batsman in his day. Not relevant to the topic at hand...jes sayin.

Chrissy is right.

In reply to Chrissy

Fair enough....but you know he aint resigning

In reply to Chrissy

Ahem, Chrissy. That is what I said

In reply to Chrissy

Conflict of interest!!!! Faithful gets the post... Sammy independent Director and now Head Coach...I have been asking from day one...... till date no clarification... whether Sammy has resigned.... Shallow administration is simply continuation of previous administration policy and perk regime albeit nominal change in President...

In reply to Onionman0

Which of the previous administrations or just all a dem

In reply to Chrissy
Leaving aside the ethics issue of whether Gill should resign his admin positions to manage an A team tour, now that Gill's background and experience has been shared with you do you still hold to your initially stated position that this is a partisan insular selection by Shallow. I asked because it seemed to me that you were initially making a case that Gill lacked merit, not that he might have a conflict of interest.

In reply to Chrissy

Your repeated mentioning of Conflict of interest which has been going on for decades has never been acknowledged by anyone in authority in the Caribbean.There are numerous examples in ALL SPHERES OF ACTIVITY in many Caribbean territories and is a measure of our lack of maturity. and an acceptance of a practice which is insidious and despicable.

In reply to newdread

Thanks for providing some balance here...

A director should not be on tour with a team, that's like having a board member on a production line, at a minimum it can be intimidating.

In reply to camos

didn't another CWI director apply for and was offered a job recently at CWI?

Or did that director resign before applying for the job?

In reply to doosra

Not sure other than the Sammy case; how can an outsider get a nonbiased evaluation when competing in such a situation?

In reply to Drapsey

cwi

In reply to camos

the manager of the team is not an advertised position i believe

at least i can't remember seeing such an ad

In reply to doosra

that comment relates to the coach and other more permanent positions.

One has to wonder about the vendor services that the CWI awards, can you imagine what is happening in this out of sight area?

In reply to camos

the right thing to do is for that person to resign if they want to apply for that position, isn't it?

is Sammy still one of those other directors tho? I don't know.

In reply to doosra

It is like applying for the same job along with the son of the company owner!

In reply to Drapsey

is that "lady" from SVG Mr. Carol James Henry from St Lucia?

In reply to doosra

No, talking bout Stacy Ann Adams.

HEADLINE: WICB new boss makes historic appointment with female selection panellist

If we add Mr Henry to the list of Dr Shallow's appointees, that would make it 4 Windward Islanders (and counting). The Leeward Islanders must be livid.

Come in VOR.

In reply to Drapsey

thanks.

In reply to camos

You are correct

A few thoughts:
- It's common for companies to have executive directors
- As long as the director does not also sit on any disciplinary committee of the Board I dont see what disadvantage accrues to the players
- I doubt manager of an A team tour is a permanent position. Seems efficient to contract from within as long as the individual has a record of competency.

I feel as if Shallow and Gill are being unnecessarily pilloried over small potatoes

In reply to Logic

directors don't have to 'sit' on the committees to influence their work tho...

i am not saying that happens here, i don't know

In reply to Chrissy

doubt anybody behavior could be as uncouth and vulgar as rousseau and the big idiot. and retroactive

In reply to Jumpstart

Yep, one thing about Dr Hilaire, the best WICB President by far, he was as cool (/smooth) as a cucumber, even during his instigation of the Chairman incident.

Nepotism raises its ugly head, an incestuous relationship to say the least!

In reply to Drapsey

lord i forgot him...but he was a CEO. not the president though. Although dragon face gave him so much free reign that he appeared to be president. we've had so many insecure, problematic nincompoops running the show that you can forget lol

In reply to Jumpstart

Oops, I forgot that the other Dr was actually the WICB President.

In reply to Jumpstart
He knew my views and so did everyone in di region.
Unlike most folks here I apply the same rules for all a dem.
I was not and am not afraid to call out peeps who I know - some quite well and some still vexed.

In reply to Chrissy

not saying no. you seem to be a very, very fair person. I'm just saying rousseau and cameron went out of their way to be offensive. Griffith wasn't very far after.

What were the wrongs Rousseau did. I still do not fully understand the circumstances surrounding the Lara/Walsh/Hooper led strike. But admired the fact that Rousseau himself flew to London
to negotiate with them unlike Cameron and Pipe-buss. The behavior of most of the top echelon of CWI is more akin to that of Neo-colonialists than merely old-boys' clubbers.

In reply to Drapsey

In reply to Cheeks

For completeness you should state that Dwain was born in Barbados and lived in Bim until his early 30's AND his parents were Grenadian (not just his wife).

More seriously, Chrissy's point is related to the conflict of interest but it takes a certain level of objectivity to appreciate a conflict of intetest. The political class in the Caribbean don't really see conflicts of interest.

Just saw above that Dukes wrote somewhat similar comments on the subject of conflict of interest. They say fools seldom differ.

In reply to Headley
Not just the political class

It is silly to think that in small territories there will be no conflict of interest

USA is rife with them. In the UK COI is ubiquitous but somehow in the Caribbean there must be none

Gill went school at Cawmere and has Grenadian parents. He is a good lad and the right choice. If Shallow is to be accused of anything it should be that he chose a bajan and a Cawmerian to boot. He could have done worse

The best way to mitigate COI is to declare them

cwi is a private entity

they can handpick their personnel

Manage By Association (MBA)

In reply to sudden

Although the region is rife with conflict of interest, it is remarkable people do not seem to understand what it is. They see it where it does not exist and do not see it when it is staring them in face.

CWI is not a government agency. It is not even a public corporation. It hires one of its own to manage some of its affairs. I am not a lawyer so perhaps the lawyers can tell me—what are the interests? In what ways are they in conflict?

In reply to doosra

In reply to JOJO

In this instance there is none as far as I am aware

Gill is not related to Shallow, is not managing an entity personally associated with Shallow or Shallow’s family or business, and Gill himself or his family doesn’t, as far as I know, have any business that competes or associates with management of the WI team or any attached personnel.

The only association I am aware of is that Gill and Shallow are loosely (some say Gill is bajan) from an political grouping known as the OEC and more specifically the Windward Islands cricket association.

In reply to sudden

you are using a very shallow definition of COI

I am not saying that this case is one of coi, i just don't know the details of his work internal to cwi and that of the team manager...just commenting on your take on coi

here's a case you might like to consider

a certain personnel was / is a director
that personnel might have been privy, party to the development of a jd, its approval etc
said personnel applied for the job, along with non-org members
said personnel got the job, his fellow directors may have had to approve it
said personnel is still a director of sorts

don't substitute names...just think about the case

In reply to doosra


Tailored to the persons, the relationship and organization in focus

Give us your take then

In reply to sudden

What is the matter with Rotondo?

There is a highway wide gap between frequent conflicts of interest and NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST. Rotondo's attempt above to set up a strawman argument is probably from force of habit.

The attempt to shift the discussion from frequent conflicts of interest to NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST is worthy of someone who spends too much time in the company of low IQ political hacks.

In reply to sudden

on the specific case, i noted a few days ago that team managers post at cwi were never advertised publicly as far as i know...and maybe its an historic practice to name someone, whether internal to cwi or from the cricket fraternity...

In reply to doosra

Even if that was / is the case how does that become a conflict of interest?

I note that Chrissy says that Gill should have resigned as a CWI director, why, where is the conflict?

In reply to sudden

which one, the director or the team manager?

I said it above and I repeat.

In reply to doosra

You are saying the management of the team was not advertised. I am asking how does that become a conflict of interest ?

Chrissy is saying Gill should have resigned his position in CWI to become manager. I am asking why, and where is the conflict?

In reply to sudden

you loss me there...i didn't say that...

In reply to doosra

Sorry I meant not advertised. I corrected it

In reply to sudden

you are better off asking Chrissy that

i gave you my take and then made a comment about my understanding of coi, then engaged you on coi with a scenario

In reply to sudden

i did not say it is a coi...i said i don't know the jd of the manager, his internal jd, etc...and noted the historic (my memory) precedent of naming managers as opposed to advertising openly for managers (that is not an endorsement of either approach by me, i'm just noting what i recall)

In reply to doosra

Now you have lost me too. Aren’t we discussing conflict of interest issues

In reply to sudden

see my previous response

i offered a scenario that is far more sophisticated, as a means to trigger a conversation re the interpretation of what constitutes coi...i concluded you offered a shallow interpretation previously [triggered by JOJO's remark that some people don't know what a coi is]

In reply to doosra

See mine

In reply to doosra

You haven’t offered much to debate and I don’t know the answers to what you ask

In reply to sudden

i was specifically responding to your description / interpretation of coi and suggested it is a 'shallow' interpretation...i offered a case study to think about

In reply to sudden

fair enough if you don't know...i didn't ask for an answer...i asked for a consideration in response to what i see as your 'shallow' take on coi

coi's can be complicated and they don't always start with after the fact...the scenario i gave you is a good one to think with, if you care to...

i am not here to teach btw..i have not a business certificate (tho these days paper qualification does not preclude one from talking about things)

In reply to doosra

Fair enough

How would a job description of team manager or any of your other musings be conflict of interests issues?

In reply to sudden

until i know the requirements of the manager and his internal responsibilities I would not be able to offer an opinion on that...

but to give you the sort of thing i would look for...is his internal role related the appointment, selection, appraisal of managers? how does his internal role and his manager's role interact wrt to players selection, development, appraisals, etc [those would have little to do with whether he is a grenadian, uncle of shallow, etc...it's a broader take on coi]

but i am only speaking hypothetical there...i just dont know...

i note with care and interest that the manager's job is temporary...were it not so i would also factor that into my thinking

In reply to doosra

Come on now, Doosie

I am racking my brain to decipher how team management in this instance could be a conflict of interest given my attempt at describing COI issues in the matter.

There is also a question of whether Shallow had a direct hand in choosing Gill

In reply to sudden

you may have read my shorter post...i extended it with possible scenarios and that those does not necessarily have to be about nepotism / affiliation

In reply to doosra

Are you suggesting that the coi arises from the selection of the manager?

Has CWI, WICB, or WICBC ever advertised the position and made selection a competitive process? So why is it a coi in this case and not in the cases where past players (known to the directors and moving in their circles) were selected as managers.

BTW, let’s just say there is job opening for an accountant at Republic Bank. They decide not to advertise the position and open it up to the hundreds of qualified accountants out there, but decide to select from the handful of people from within—known to them. Does that make it a coi?

That’s the problem with defining coi so loosely. The fact there there are interests, some of which may be mutual, does not imply that a coi will arise.

In reply to JOJO

no
my scenario was not about the manager

it was a scenario to counter what i interpreted to be a limited take on what a coi entails...

In reply to JOJO

i think the entire discussion / argument here on coi is a bit careless (my view)

the case you provided on the surface appears unproblematic... but if we know more we can better assess the merit of your question...

for example
1. if that person was part of the team / individually decided not to advertise because it would benefit said person, then that may conflict with the interest of the business...ie finding the best person for the job
2. if that individual had prior / present duties that may conflict with new duties, then that has to be ironed out via things like resignations, reassignments etc
3. if that new role means the person will now be managing others, making decisions that might benefit friends, family, others, etc...then same as 2. above applies

hence my take on understanding the details of the 2 roles

I was looking for a common understanding of what is a COI. It may have escaped me?



Isn't this the place to start an argument like this one?

In reply to doosra

How would you define conflict of interest?

In reply to Courtesy

Earlier I noted that-

In reply to sudden

that is a good question to forward the discussion

let me give you another scenario

i've often had the experience (as an external evaluator) where private entities tell you that they can decide who their board of directors are...in a family business, they say they are free to have all family members on the board, etc...that is none of our business...there is no conflict, they manage how they want, they make decisions that benefit the business in their eyes, etc etc

now if this is a school for example, operating within a larger public space, the question of 'whose interest' broadens the scope of coi...so whose interest is of utmost importance in any description / defn (btw i think defns of social constructs is not a good thing, i prefer descriptions)...but back to the case...we often say to those schools that we have an obligation to consider the interest of other stakeholders and therefore to address any coi, perceived or real, board membership to include external stakeholders...now this can be artificial, and institutions often just add ppl's name on...

In reply to sudden

if i were your teacher in class, i would remind you to broaden your view of coi beyond personal relationships... personal interests, responsibilities etc could be in conflict or opposed to the interest of personal relations, but also the wider professional, social context, etc...coi can also arise after appointments, in which case you'd need to excuse yourself...the best arrangements in my experience minimizes ad hoc coi cases

i offered 3 scenarious...phew

lol

In reply to doosra

Thanks for the scenarios. Now offer a definition

In reply to doosra

On the first point: the fact that it may benefit the individual, does not imply that the individual may not be able to fulfill his role because it may harm his interests. Again—conflict.

On the other two points: I really do not see how this apply to the role of team manager.

In reply to JOJO

that you do not see it does not mean it does or doesn't apply...we just don't know the details

In reply to sudden

OK. I see where you are going with this but it did not achieve the intended purpose.

In reply to doosra

Come on Doosie.

As a lecturer, give us your all encompassing definition of conflict of interest and then tie it in with this matter

At least I attempted but you continue to offer scenarios that have little or no relationship on the face of it with the matter at hand

In reply to sudden

In reply to sudden

definitions are for csec and common entrance...definitions lock you into specific cases and limits thinking in cases that are more sophisticated and complex

a coi is a conflict between personal interests (could be that of you, your bosses, etc) and your judgement / ability to make decisions that are fair, professional, in the interest of your stakeholders / those you serve

In reply to doosra

Isn't there an important ingredient missing in this definition above?

In reply to sudden

now you can offer one that you asked and that you have a view of no coi in this case

In reply to doosra

That is so broad that you can drive the Guyana Cricket Boatd thru it.

Too broad to serve any useful purpose or a basis for debate of this matter

Almost everything can be seen as a conflict by that definition

In reply to Courtesy

you offer what you think is missing and let's consider it

definitions, by definition are often limited and that is exactly why i suggest i prefer descriptions and the use of analysis to examine cases based on what info is available..

In reply to sudden

you have supported my point that definitions are limited that way...hence my approach to examine cases in details...an attempt to define any social construct will result in that problem...that does not mean that anything goes...it is incorrect to suggest everything can be...

With Gill being one of CWI director, any incident from the tour , CWI has to decide on, to which Gill is a member.
Why should a board director be a cricket manager?

In reply to sudden

You have narrowed it down to simply "conflict" which can be useful in organisations. But I digress.

In reply to doosra

Is there a place for "compromise" in this definition and isn't that key to any argument on conflict of interest?

In reply to openning

in that case Gill should properly be asked to recuse himself from such meetings...there are ways around it...whether that would satisfy the interests of the opposite parties is another issue...

In reply to Courtesy

i am not sure what you mean compromise in this context but compromises too will have to consider potential conflicts...i don't think we are disagreeing...my personal take is to examine COI issues case by case, before and after the fact, and have a system that allows for in situ decisions. Sometimes a coi arises because things change, it was unforeseen etc

When a person in some way gains an advantage pecuniary or otherwise by employing or causing to be employed a family member or a friend in a position that person is not suited or where the position was not not advertised or where that person routs company business to an entity he owns or have an interest in (by family or business affiliation) contrary to his fiduciary duties to the organization in which he manages or is a stakeholder

In reply to doosra
Why would anyone make a director manager?
Daily we see posts of the many Barbadians being selected by Haynes, not you see a Grenadian Director serving as manager, and two others from the Windwards as coaches.
I personally don't care, just putting it out there.

In reply to doosra

Would you agree that unless the individual 's relationships compromises his decison making, then it can not be considered a conflict of interest?

In reply to sudden

i appreciate your take

why would you limit coi to friends and family?
and why would you limit it to business / fiduciary duties?

those are sincere questions btw...not meant to attack you...but to broaden my understanding

In reply to openning

Bruh, with all due respect, what part of the planet are you from?

All COIs can be managed by declaring them and exempting oneself from decision making process where they arise

In reply to openning

many reasons...in this case it might just be pragmatic to because it is a temporary post - dual appointments are not uncommon in modern organisations...esp smaller ones with limited resources...i had one experience very recently...we asked that jds be very distinct, and that specific issues be handled in suggested ways...recusing self from meetings, etc...it is not always problematic openning

In reply to sudden

Ahhhahh!

In reply to Courtesy

again i would say i am not sure i understand the extent of your take on what constitute "relationships"- i suggested to sudden above that my take on coi is beyond friends and family.

In reply to doosra

I suggest that you focus a lot more on decision making and where it compromises the individual.

In reply to doosra

It seems to me that you are consistently addressing conflict and not interest

Interest in this instance is the Cui bono or who gains from the conflict which would be the subject matter of the interest

one more thing i can say for sure is that perceptions of coi can be as real as actual coi - i've worked with managers who took the high road and made it clear so and so will not be because of the perception that...

In reply to sudden

Dis done...I am out of here.

In reply to sudden

i am not sure i agree with you...i see interest broader than you and that is ok if we disagree

i also see conflict in a much broader light but that's perhaps because my line of work is public-oriented, than private

In reply to Courtesy

dis done is usually the first sign of simplicity

In reply to Courtesy

i notice you have been more inclined to be 'out of here' since a certain thread got started lol

that's a personal dig don't worry

In reply to sudden
My interest has always be cricket, but during my life time, I hear of the Big 5 and Windwards and Leewards having little say in selection.
With two Barbadians as selectors we see and hear of selectors selecting players from Barbados.
Sammy bing name captain we heard the same, not the same is being said with Shallow as president and right out of the gate, three people from the Windwards are in positions.

In reply to doosra

Ok I see. In that case for you COI is more concerned with management than with the initial selection process.

The management of COI as you and I have spoken to above, would then come into play

In that regard I don’t see an issue with Gill’s appointment

In reply to sudden

what i appreciate about you and your conversations is your level of consistency, whether we agree or not...
that is not to say people'e views don't change but yours don't flip depending on who is to benefit...i respect that...

these weeks i have been taken back by the level of inconsistency in positions here...but that's perhaps because I should be writing my damn papers than be found arguing here

In reply to doosra

No problem

This forum is a good outlet for me. I can talk Shoite here

Although I enjoy a good argument too.


I must say I have learnt a lot here so no big deal

In reply to sudden

you got my email in case you are coming over to gt

i am off at least until some later time...

In reply to doosra

Cool

In reply to Courtesy

My ex-wife sits on various board, she was an educator, I am also surround by hundreds of board members, people I have known from my working days.
My response to you is the word insularity, the only time I see the word or hear it, is on this mb and regional cricket commentary.
Thats the reason I made reference to the subject.