@spider

Are they not totally different things?

This is the CRUX of the Rumshop argument.

I believe you can get both in a single delivery.

Case in point- Brezerk and others now add in cross holding of the SEAM instead of Upright , slightly pointed one way or the other to outfox a Batsman.

To me- This is just the SKILL of Bowler who has to contend with batmen who can “Read/Pick” a delivery Upon release.

There are soooo many variables-

State of Pitch

Batsmans Attitude

Field placing.

I honestly believe this has legs because when I was a lad one used to hear a separation along the lines of

He is a SEAM bowler! Full stop

He is a SWING Bowler- full stop

I have always thought that both elements can co exist and it really comes down to the skill of the Bowler

@CCW

I agree with you..

Swing is through the Air

Seam is what happens once it contacts the Pitch.

I try not to complicate it.

@CCW

a ball cannot swing after pitching

Sir, with all due respect, that is simply not true.

In England, the atmosphere is very heavy and conducive to swing bowling.

Many times a commentator in England says, "My word, the pronounced swing after the ball passes the stumps is making life extremely difficult for the keeper."

@Fivestar

So, you mentioned "heavy atmosphere" but experts say swing has nothing to do with the weather. So many, including most commentators, are of the opinion that it swings more in overcast conditions. Scientists say that's not true. Jimmy Anderson agrees with the scientists too.

@spider

So why is Jimmy's record in Oz n WI so poor when compared to his English record? Same scientists claim no relationship to weather and arthritis, my body tells me differently

@Brerzerk

Funny you should say that. I know someone who used that very same example to dispute the swing/weather correlation. Yes, researchers have rubbished the relationship between arthritis and weather as well. Sometimes things are not what they seem.

A number of things could account for Anderson being a better bowler in England. The Dukes ball for one, has a higher seam and probably swing more and for longer. Pitches in England are likely greener and facilitate seam movement more. Home advantage is also has a psychological dimension. Roach performs much better in the West Indies. Chris Woakes. Actually most players do better at home

@spider

You know that last post reminded me of the initial introduction of the Kookaburra Ball.

Cause I completely forgot how many complained about the NEWLY manufactured cricket balls...and how they performed differently.

I tell yall...Bowling is a skill that deserves plenty respect when executed well

@powen001

Do you recall when that was? Because we used house kookaburra , which was changed at the prompting of Otis Gibson if I remember right, to the Dukes, which is also used in England. Almost everywhere else, I believe, use the Kookaburra, except India, who I think use a ball named the SG

There is a long list of medium pace swing bowlers who exploited damp, overcast English conditions to be beasts. However, anywhere else they were tame pussycats.

Bob Massie comes to mind. He debuted in Tests at Lords in overcast conditions. He swung the ball like a boomerang and took 16 wickets. Eight in the first innings and eight in the second.

He played one or two more Tests outside of England and then his career was over.

By the way, one of the biggest misconceptions about swing bowling is it is caused by the wind.

The two main things that make a cricket ball swing big are overcast conditions and the type of ball.

@Fivestar

I dont think it swung like a boomerang actually. Too much swing is often counterproductive. But it did swing. He was a good swing bowler, as was Terry Alderman who wreaked havoc in England on occasion. But aerodynamics experts who do tests, and probably the greatest swing bowler ever insists the weather has no effect. You mentioned the ball, which in England helps swing more. The pitches are greener as well which does less damage to the ball and facilitates it swinging for longer periods. Jimmy Anderson won tests in Australia and India with swing when there were few clouds in the sky. I have seen him conduct swing bowling exhibitions in the West Indies under clear skies. Wasim and Waqar swung it in Pakistan and everywhere else and they didnt need clouds. But every time we see it swing in cloudy conditions we point to the clouds as the reason

@spider

@powen001

I'm enjoying this convo.

@spider

There is a reason why many swing bowlers do well in England but not anywhere else.

Swing bowling requires the bowler to take the ball up to the batsman so it has time to move in the air.

The problem is some days the ball will not swing.Especially outside of England where conditions are not favourable to swing bowling.

Then what?

Well, the bowler better have a back up plan. You can't call yourself a swing bowler and bowl six straight balls an over up to the bat. A good batsman will tear your bowling to shreds.

@spider

To get the ball swing prodigiously or under certain conditions you need a good metal cork / bottle cap and some petroleum jelly or Vaseline

@sudden

Are you lifting the seam or scratching the rough side?

@sudden

I'm sure all of those help. But it swings without the aid of any of that all the time