Had Shai Hope scored runs at his overall ODI SR of 75 today he would have scored 86 runs.

West Indies would have scored 293 runs. Instead, we scored 335...42 runs to the good.

This has provided the other batsmed to take less risks and the team now has a lot more cushion when we bowl.

It shows the value of him and today's front line batsmen middle order batsmen scoring at striking rates of over 80 and finishers over 100 in modern ODI and that's the point I am making.

It's a pity that the nuances and stats escape some of us.

In reply to Courtesy

I will pull up a chair.

So let us get rid of Shai Hope and keep all the players who average 40 with the bat at a healthy strike rate.

That sir is nuances escaping some of us.

In reply to nick2020

You are being simplistic at best and not nuanced. I have never hinted at dropping Shai Hope and no reasonable man would interpret the thread in this manner.

Stop tinking with your bottom and making an ass of yourself.

A five year old would understand this thread.

In reply to Courtesy

Lol…was just thinking that post was exceedingly infantile.

In reply to Discourse



I never even hinted at dropping Hope.

In reply to Courtesy

I always thought the indictment was on the ice cream man management team and their strategy to subdue arguably the best batsman in the Caribbean and to temper him into a poking ODI opener. That was wrong. It didn't take new management long to figure that out. Now I could enjoy some of what this guy had indeed promised, win or lose.


Test next!

In reply to Courtesy

I was being figurative not literal.

Shai Hope's career SR is 75. Up to this point in his career that is who he is more often than a 115 SR cricketer.

Agreed?

So if he fails to score at a striking rate of over 80, which given a large enough sample size he does not, then what value does he have in your opinion?

I will leave it at this and wait for your response.

In reply to nick2020

Is that being figurative above? Man you are better than this.

................

In today's ODI, you front load load and back load the innings. You can figure out the ideal rate of the anchor person to consistently score over 320.

In reply to Courtesy

So onto the questions I asked?

In reply to nick2020

Are you dunce? The above is pellucidly clear. Do you want me to pap feed you?

Shai needs to up his usual SR to above 80 while others who bat around do the heavy lifgting.

In reply to Courtesy

I have to head out to the interior in a query to find oil.

I will check in periodically to see if you have responded to his value as a front line batsman who has a strike rate lower than 80.

I am not running from the fight. Yet.

In reply to nick2020

No more wasting time with you. This is kindergarten stuff.

In reply to Courtesy

He has played plenty of cricket and his average is 75.

In reply to Courtesy

I predicted this response. I was hoping I was wrong.

Shai Hope has played in 104 ODI matches and his SR is 75. Your response is he needs to up his strike rate. After 102 matches and 99 inns?

Really?



This is a non-position. You are not making any substantial point given the reality of the numbers. I rather not advance what position you are trying to establish because you much prefer to ridicule others to appear you are intellectually superior.

But that is not intellectual superiority. Nor is hanging on to one thing instead of debating the substance of the topic.

I tried.

Good luck.

We're beginning to see how vital that Shai Hope big step up today is.

Dat 42 runs cushion was very important.

Most of our bowlers bowled crap.

Stats don’t always tell the whole story in cricket, probably other sports too but I can speak of cricket.

In reply to Courtesy
I did not see your post and the consequent thread before I posted.
If I did there'd be absolutely no point in making the same point (pun intended)

We ALL need to be objective when weaknesses are pointed out especially if accompanied
with data and suggested corrective measures.

In reply to Courtesy

we have some oldies to remind us

exhibit 1

Exhibit 2

Exhibit 3

Exhibit 4 - the Doosra / Courtesy Method

more

even more

and moreeeee

there is a common theme

and yes Shai Hope's strike rate and dot balls probably the most consistently talked about odi problem on this board

In reply to doosra

Thanks for look back.

I hope the fundamental point does not escape the lesser mortals.

In reply to Brerzerk

Totally agree.

Education should provide us with the power of reasoning.

In reply to Courtesy

it is simple...at SR of 80 in the modern day when you bad half the resources will not get you far

all the data points to that

onward we go...not too late

In reply to doosra

nick2020 stood on his hind legs but still did not reach the point.

In reply to Courtesy

Nick din go cowmare?

In reply to doosra

Nick must have held his own fuh dis 2 prong attack

In reply to Courtesy

I would suggest that you accept the fact that once most human beings make up their mind about something, they will not change regardless of what data is presented to them.People who are schooled in the scientific methodology tend not to display that fundamental human weakness.
Examples of this phenomenon are plentiful on this message board on cricket topics but lemme give you a Medical example.

I have a friend from high school who is a Journalist.He was recently diagnosed with high blood pressure.He told me,he does not understand how he could have high blood pressure because he has never had headaches and feels fine. I tried to explain to him that high blood pressure rarely causes headaches or indeed any other symptoms and that is why it is so dangerous.
Sadly he refuses to accept that I might know what I am talking about and is still lamenting this strange phenomenon of him having high blood pressure despite feeling absolutely fine.
There is absolutely nothing I can tell him to convince him against what he thinks he knows.
Many on this board have an opinion on something and the facts can take a hike if they show the opposite.

In reply to Dukes

That is as relevant as a man complaining that he is well endowed but can’t get a partner

In reply to Dukes

I would suggest that you accept the fact that once most human beings make up their mind about something, they will not change regardless of what data is presented to them

That above profound.
I see it daily.

In reply to Dukes

Then I go back to my earlier statement: Education is a process of reasoning and not "to make yuor mind up about something."

In reply to sudden

Maybe I should have transferred to Cawmere

In reply to nick2020

And all the time I was thinking that you were a stowaway who arrived in Barbados way past schooling years.

In reply to sudden

MAAAN

Why don't you open a school to teach fishes to ride bicycles!!!!!

In reply to Dukes

My point exactly

In reply to Courtesy

Courts, I see the point you're making and I have to say that you are correct. Shai Hope is by far our best ODI batter and today showed how important his innings with an increased strike rate was to the much deserved win. I did admit in a previous post that improving on such is a step in the right direction. ODI cricket has changed over the years and because of the powerplay overs, wides from bowling down the legside and freehits from no balls, the game has become advantageous to batters. Hence, 300+ scores have become the norm. I said that we had to score over 300 runs to be competitive, at least between 315-320 runs. We got 335 which was more than most expected. Therefore, since our team depends heavily on Hope, this must become the norm more often.

In reply to Courtesy

Are you sure you are not the POINT,he was missing like you.

In reply to Windiesfan78

It is very simple. We need to think of maximum utilization of our given resources.

The number of balls we have to face are the resources given when batting...and our bowlers when on the field. The combine utilization of these resources will determine the outcome of the games.

We must also consider that we do not have quality bowling resources and therefore any competitive advantage will have to be gained with our batting.

Teams front load their innings as well as back load.

Give our bowlers a total where there will be room for error. Our margin of error has to be wider than all other ODI teams.

Most of our bowlers give opposition batsmen diabetes.

Teams with the ability to maximize their resources will always have the competitive advantage.

We have to implement our game using scientific methods.

In reply to Courtesy

I knew the key to winning the match today was getting QDK and Bavuma out. Bavuma scored half of the runs that SA made and like Hope, was key to his team's success. Based on our bowling attack, as shown in Pakistan when we lost even after scoring 300+ runs, we need to be consistently scoring big against the stronger teams.

When observations on Shai's approach used to be made, homies would point out thata'at least he didn't get out and cause a collapse. Surely a middle otder batsman and or finisher must shore up a good start as Shai did today but King amd Kyle got out but but they utilized the powerplay provided a cushion and reduced pressure

Cricket is a conditional sport it is not always about strike rate.

In reply to Wally-1

Please list the conditionalities. This can make an interesting discussion.

In reply to nick2020

I would had agree with you until I looked at the top players for comparison, Shai SR is ten points below the norm.

In reply to Wally-1

Repeat: Please list the conditionalities. This can make an interesting discussion.

Our cricket is bad and we all want to see a return to the glory days. We all have different points of view but we all want the same outcome.

I believe the biggest issue with our batmen is we are unable to bat our way through 300 balls or 3 sessions. I believe this has been an issue for a while. I remember before Shai Hope we have Shiv Chanderpaul. The people who loved Shiv loved the way he valued his wicket. The people who hated Shiv hated his selfishness. But if the rest of our players could emulate the best of Shiv our cricket would have been in a better place.

The Numbers

Nicholas Pooran averages 36 in ODI at a strike rate of 96. In 50 inns he faces on average 33 balls (he has 6 Not Outs and that skews his average so his average score per inns is actually 31.8. So he gets out on average around the 33rd ball he faces.

Shai Hope faces on average 58.83 balls before he gets out.

The Belief

What plagues West Indies Cricket the most? I believe we have a bunch of batsmen who can score runs quickly but get out quickly. I believe the first step is to find players who can stay on the pitch and out of the pavilion. I do not see the value in saying "Shai Hope needs to score at a run a ball + maintain 50 average" when that is clearly not who he is. 100 inns later that is not who he is. So what is the point coming on here asking for unicorns?

I am not here saying the Strike Rate side is wrong; there is no right or wrong. You shuffle a deck of cards and pull a hand that may be more or less desirable based on the situation. I personally believe we need to firstly get players who can face a variety of deliveries and not get out like a dunce and secondly work on getting them to score quicker. We all want people who can score lots of runs quickly.

And people who look at life as right and wrong are often too rigid and incapable of being effective in diverse situations. I prefer to see our players face 58 balls and make 50 runs vs 33 balls and make 38 runs because our biggest issue in my opinion with our batsmen is all out not current run rate.

In reply to openning

ICC ODI Player Rankings

#1 Babar Azam - 59 Avg @ 89 SR
#2 Rassie - 64 avg @ 90 SR
#3 David Warner - 45 Avg @ 96 SR
#4 De Kock - 45 Avg @ 96 SR
#5 Imam - 50 Avg @ 82 SR
.
.
.
#14 Shai - 50 Avg @ 75 SR

Assuming we keep Shai's BF the same at 5883 and upped his SR to 90 he would then score 5295 runs putting him at 53 runs an inns. He currently has 4436 runs / 100 inns = 44 runs an inns. 8 More runs per at bat.

I will leave that up to you to decide if that is a much of a much. I would tell you we certainly aren't losing by 8 runs so it is a much of a much.

If any of my math is wrong let me know. I ain't eat all day.

Edit - I believe it is 14 more runs not 8. Compared a NO avg to a runs per inns avg. Would make it more compelling.

We, humans, prefer to believe what we want to believe.
So let me ask this if you believe in Continuous Improvement
and Hope albeit with a better average is striking at the same rate
or less of Shiv, Sars and Gayle are the arguments for improvements
merited? Before you answer please note that the men mentioned above
played at least half their ODI careers in 'a different era and game'
Smaller bats, tougher pitches, longer boundaries, different powerplay rules etc.

In reply to nick2020

nick that is whole lot of bad flying fish....stop it. you are in full confirmation bias mode

let me just repeat what i said before...batting slow, soaking up dot balls, etc... affect the whole rhythm and flow of an innings...so those 8 runs you talk about is not the what we end up short by...

In reply to Brerzerk

Does the data support the beliefs?

I do not understand your question. Do I believe we are justified for asking Hope to improve? Of course. Pooran too. King too. Our bowlers too. I would love to see Hope with Babar's stats and I will still want improvement.

I think I can swallow his low strike rate because I see our biggest problem is getting out quickly. In this department he is doing a far better job.

In reply to nick2020

You must implement whatever it takes to win a game and Shai Hope scoring consistently at a SR of 75 will not help you. If every batsman scored at that pace the team will score 225.

In today's world that score will win the occassional game providing you have world class bowlers. Are we embarking in an exercise of futility when we play these ODIs? I believe if you are going to die better have your boots on.

It is also unfair to ask the other batsmen to score at break neck speed and risk getting out while the tortoise cruises.

However, let us not runaway from the main problem...our batsmen lack the requisite skills at international level. Shai Hope is closer to international requirements but bats the slowest. Does that make sense?

We are attempting to fix consequences of a main problem. Get the team to international standards. For three decades we have failed our cricketers.

In reply to doosra

Show me the data of the other batsmen in our squad and the contributions they make to the match.

In reply to Courtesy

see my above post about breaking the rhythm and flow of the innings...that is exactly it

In reply to nick2020

if you want to start a new discourse on contributions fine...do that...but settle this one first

In reply to Courtesy

So again I am looking at what I perceive to be a problem and attempting to find a solution.

The rest of our batsmen average less than 40. If Shai Hope averaged what Pooran did - 36 at a SR of 96 we would be in a worse position.



When Shai Hope sat in matches the hares still got out. To say he is the reason they are risking getting out is not accurate and is done to further an agenda.

In reply to doosra

Show me your data.

In reply to doosra

This must affect the rhythm. You have to scramble too much to make a decent score. And mind you, even Shai Hope has to go Hellter Skelter towards the end of his innings. For the majority of his innings he is strinking in the 50's.

In reply to nick2020

what data do you want...say it exactly ...that striking at 75 means eating up dot balls that others don't have and then have to take greater risks to catch up if we want a par score?

In reply to Courtesy

nick, with his homie cap on will never see it

In reply to nick2020

Your assumption that there cannot be more than one problem is puerile at best.

Just admit a SR of 75 is problematic and we will take it from there.

Are you prepared to do so?

In reply to Courtesy

You put forward a scenario of what happened if the bats had his SR.

What are you not addressing my counter of what if he had Pooran's stats?

In reply to Courtesy

Are you prepared to debate?

In reply to nick2020

Repeat:

Your assumption that there cannot be more than one problem is puerile at best.

Just admit a SR of 75 is problematic and we will take it from there.

Are you prepared to do so?

In reply to Courtesy

A SR of 75 is problematic.

Just admit having a team full of batsmen with a 30 something avg is problematic and we will take it from there.

In reply to nick2020

When you remove your head from your ass a debate can certainly take place.

In reply to Courtesy

You are only willing to steer the conversation the way you want.

You are refusing to answer questions yet want answers to yours.

Cricinfo - Shai Hope's inns

In reply to nick2020

This is the focus of my thread which was started before SA batted. You have chosen to introduce extraneous circumstances...to prove what?

Your silly diversion was not needed and was not what was intended.

In reply to nick2020

Hold yuh man uh mean men, Nick

In reply to Courtesy

You claim to be intelligent yet these comments belie your assertion.

I have given your thread plenty of oxygen.

In reply to doosra

Doosie I will exit the thread now but I will leave it with this:

Look at all the ODI Shai Hope got out quickly like this one

We scored 149 runs in 41 overs. Hope got out for a 1 ball duck. He certainly was not the reason why we failed to put up a competitive total. However let us not cherrypick.

Take all. And get the data. That will give us some guidance.

In reply to sudden

We all want our cricket to be better and we all have different views.

But this is a rum shop so drink ya drinks.

In reply to nick2020

i am in no way suggesting we are better off without Shai, far from it...but again, that is not the point

let us agree to disagree and keep the good vibe

In reply to nick2020

This only proves that Shai Hope failed miserably in his responsibility of anchoring the innings. That's his responsibility.

I AM SAYING FURTHER, THAT HE SHOULD NOT SHIRK THAT RESPONSIBILITY, ONLY THAT HE SCORES AT A SR OF AROUND 85.

What is so difficult in understanding this simple function?

In reply to doosra

I can't believe there is so much difficulty understanding this.

In reply to Courtesy

What if he batting in the middle?

In reply to sudden

He showed what's to be achieved beautifully yesterday.

From my lead post:

In reply to Courtesy

Thanks

Carry on smartly

In reply to sudden



The lead post sought to give Shai plenty of credit for what he achieved yesteday. I don't know what Nick was thinking.

In reply to Courtesy

You are yet to address very simple questions while I easily complied. I am sure you have your reasons. I did as you wanted - Shai Hope's 75 SR is a problem.
Yet you prefer not to address the averages of the other batsmen on the team.

We do not live in a vaccuum. Shai's SR avg is 75. The rest averaging 36 runs and lower.

So he is not alone in the failures of our score. Pooran is averaging 36. King 26. Mayers 30. Brooks 33. Powell 23. Can't we discuss that as well?

In reply to Courtesy

I think Nick laid out his case and it is now up to the jury to decide

And that is all I have to say on the matter

In reply to nick2020

Forget about your attempt at a nonsensical diversion, don't you want Shai to use yesterday's performance as a template moving forward?

In reply to sudden

Nick simply remembered my past criticism of Shai's slow overall SR of 75. He saw nothing else but red and he argued from a very weak position introducing extraneous circumstances to bolster his foolish diversion.

He did not see it from the perspective that I was actually giving Shai plenty of credit for yesterday's innings.

How a man can see this differently is beyond me.

The 'MIGGLE' yesterday benefitted from the good use of the powerplay by Mayers and King. Thankfully it was 'STAY DEH HOPE' who was in the miggle and not 'lickit out quik Pooran n Hetty'

Hey Nick yuh think I'm gonna post what I believe and not what I know ( Bob Marley)
Shiv sr 70 Sars sr 75+ Crampy sr 87+